Talk:Snowclone/Archive 1

Common usage, examples, origin

I just don't see enough justification that this is a real phrase in common usage. It seems to me someone trying to be witty, coining something new, and trying to get people to start using it that it becomes real. I don't buy it. --MinervaZee 03:31, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I realise this has been debated before, but it seems clear that this word still isn't in common usage - almost every use of it online is a discussion of the word, not a use of it. It's a neologism that clearly isn't taking root, so why is it still being indulged? AndrewXyz 11:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I presume this is a pun on snowcone, something I've only come across (in the UK) by not getting *other* references to it. Is the implication that a snowclone is gratifying but ultimately lazy? --jackv

I don't get it? What does a snowcone have to do with it? And besides, doesn't paraphrase kind of describe this phenomenon already? I mean, let's say we have a quote: "There's no crying in baseball". Wouldn't "There's no crying in webdesign" be a paraphrase of that quote? Problem solved? Gtroop (talk) 21:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

No mention of the Ur-snowclone, and the source of the term, "____ have X words for ____" (from the erroneous but pervasive comment that 'Eskimos have (some large number) of words for snow')?

--67.171.217.89 04:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

What's going on with the "in Soviet Russia" one? I'm familiar with it, but not the one connected to it. Or are those meant to be on two separate lines?

"Capitalism is a system of dog eat dog, Communism is the exact opposite." unknown

What is the Ur snowclone?

--devotchka oct 19 2005

If you're asking what does ur-snowclone mean, it means the original or first snowclone which is the one that User:67.171.217.89 quoted. The ur- is a prefix meaning: primal/origin/first/out of; basis/primary/principle; denoting someone or something regarded as embodying the basic or intrinsic qualities of a particular class or type. Byspels are urtext and urgrund.

If you're asking which snowclone is the ur-snowclone, then it's the one he quoted about eskimos and snow.

--AnWulf ... Wes þu hal! (talk) 22:56, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Who is Glen Whitman, and why do we care what phrases this guy makes up?

The word has spread pretty widely on the internet, but I'll edit the article so that it makes clear that it isn't an official term in any sense.

--devotchka oct 20 2005

What's the origin of the term? Superm401 | Talk 00:14, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Origin: http://agoraphilia.blogspot.com/2004_01_11_agoraphilia_archive.html#107412842921919301 Do you think that ought to be on the 'external links' part as well?

--devotchka 21 oct 2005

That was quick. Damn. Devotchka 19:20, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

There is a mistake in the article: David Crystal did not refer to the Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy but to a conference on English language. And the phrase comes from Star Trek:To boldly go where no man has gone before...Amazingly the bibliographical reference is correct and I invite other users to check it out again. Snowclone is actually the scientific name for this kind of trope and is absolutely legitimate because no other words refer to that kind of tropes. David Crystal talked about "catch structure" but linguists who work on the phenomenon nowadays call them snowclones. Hapaxlinguist (talk) 00:00, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Why was this page deleted?

Why was this page deleted and then protected? Its wikipedia article is even mentioned here. I have writen a proposal for an article to go here (it isn't wikified or anything, but I didn't want to spend much time on it here: User:Smmurphy/Snowclone. Smmurphy 23:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Ample documentation as to why it was deleted available here. In brief, it was decided that it is a neologism that is not used widely enough to warrant an entry in an encyclopedia. I see you have already started building a replacement at User:Smmurphy/Snowclone, which is what I was about recommend. Once you have your version ready to the point where you want to propose it for an article, just drop a note here or on an admin's talk page, and the admins can help move the process forward. —HorsePunchKid→龜 23:18, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

The page was deleted more recently when I wrote the article and it was quickly nominated for deletion, so I deleted it, not understanding the policy and appropriate steps following NfD. It was reverted, so I deleted it again, at which point it was protected because the nominator thought *I* was trying to revert it. The discussion cited above does not relate to what I wrote. Most of what I tried to say is now in the current snowclone article, although I haven't had anything to do with it. I didn't have a user name when I wrote the article. User:ErinOConnor

Forgot to mention: You might consider Wikipedia:Deletion review, if it has not already been brought up there. —HorsePunchKid→龜 23:23, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, by no means is this polished (but its cleaner than it was), but I would like to humbly submit User:Smmurphy/Snowclone as a new article for this word. Should I post a request at Wikipedia:Deletion review? If I do that, I suppose I will need to write up a statement defending its undelete, stating why the term deserves an article (which I suppose would then go into the article in some way), so if thats the next step, let me know. Thanks. Smmurphy 00:02, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

You should definitely be prepared to defend the article. If you can make changes to the article that address the reasons it was deleted (for example, citing sources that have used the word), it would certainly help. Just be careful to avoid writing defensively. I have seen some articles that have gone up for deletion turn into a list of claims to fame, which is not a good way to go. :)

Well, here's one for the citation list -- in the Times, no less: [1] Dan 17:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Give the article a day or two to see if an admin (which I am not) will let you know what the next step is. If you don't get a response soon, you should do what the notice currently on the page says and contact Fire Star, since s/he is the one who protected the page. Good luck! —HorsePunchKid→龜 00:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I've unprotected the page, as it was proposed to me by Smmurphy, it no longer fits what I would speedy delete. If people want it deleted still they can go through AfD or another admin. --Fire Star 02:08, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Language Log takes on Wikipedia Snowcloning

A recent Language Log entry offers a critique of this Wikipedia entry and its sister-article "List of snowclones." Mark Liberman writes that,

But two things have been bothering me about about all this. First, phrasal templates like those on the Wikipedia list are often more protean -- and therefore more interesting -- than the descriptions suggest. And second, the original "If Eskimos" example is not really an example of the same thing at all.

Which may lead one to wonder if "snowcloning" as we've defined it here is really what the Language Log and its participating linguists are actually referring to, or only a shallow version of it. Perhaps Mr. Liberman is expanding the scope of the term, to encompass any sort of phrase modification-- in which case, I would suggest that "snowclone" is merely a different animal of cliche or stock phrase, more like a punnish joke, really, than a linguistic nomenclature. It seems to be that nearly all the modern usages we list of "snowclones" fall into the category of parody/satire, with the nose-tweaking understanding (for the most part) that, "yes, we know we're making a reference to a pop-cultural touchpoint." Since there are no comments available on that blog, I thought I'd bring up the discussion here of whether "snowclone" is a neologism that has any legs, outside of the circle of linguistic-blog-buddies who coined it. --Leflyman^Talk 22:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Snowclone is definitely a subcategory of cliche, but that doesn't invalidate it as a separate class. I only have anecdotal evidence for the spread of the term beyond the linguistic sphere, myself, but people seem to like there being a separate word for the concept. I think perhaps some refinement of the definition is in order, particularly taking into account Dr. Liberman's comments on the post you cite, and your own paraphrase. ErinOConnor 00:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Funny, when I first heard "snowclone" I thought it had something to do with the way that snowcones were all basically the same, with just a little variation in the syrup poured on top. Even if it's not the real explanation I think it sounds better :P Confusing Manifestation 15:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

What ever happened to the snowclones of yesteryear?

Can someone tell me what the original of "What ever happened to the X of yesteryear" is? --Iustinus 18:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Your best bet is probably to email one of the Language Log guys, who have access to lots of corpora that can probably answer this question. I'm compiling a snowclones database but I've never heard of this one. ErinOConnor 16:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

"Where are the X of yesteryear" probably has the original "Where are the snows of yesteryear" -- a direct translation of "Où sont les neiges d'antan". Francois Villon, late 15th century. - anon, 16 July 2006

Also note the use in Joseph Heller's novel, Catch-22, where a character asks, in allusion to Villon, "Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballade_des_dames_du_temps_jadis —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.242.118.143 (talk) 10:46, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

i forgot to log in before editing - i took out the "x considered harmful" example, because it is a very common phrase *not* referencing the original in any way, and put in "springtime for x", because whenever i see that construction, it is invariably a reference to the original. Shadowsong 23:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Neologism

Though it appears that this page was already deleted and restored once, I don't think that this is an appropriate article, especially since the majority of uses of the world "snowclone" appear in encyclopedia entries defining it. The essence of this article should be incorporated somewhere else: possibly under cliches or maybe a blanket directory of neologisms. Blintz 04:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The phrase has been widely adopted since its coining, and reported on by several news sources. This is why the word has an article. Circeus 05:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

While the word "snowclone" is a neologism, snowclones themselves are not neologisms. For example, "jumping the shark" is a phrase coined to describe when something has gone too far in an attempt to remain exciting. That's a neologism. If I were to start a trend of using "____ the shark" (eating the shark, maybe?), that would be a snowclone. However, there's nothing neo- about snowclones; they are copies and parodies of an original, not new constructions. Shadowsong 20:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Since "snowclone" is a neologism, it does not deserve an article by that name (WP:NEO). Whether individual "snowclones" are neologisms is irrelevant. I'm shocked this article hasn't been removed by now and can only put it down to overenthusiasm for transient "Internet memes". 86.150.131.83 10:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Whether or not there exist things that can be called snowclones, this does not in itself legitimise the invention of the term. Contrary to claims above, the word has not been widely adopted - the word is used almost exclusively in discussions of the word itself, both online and in the news articles about it. The existence of this article appears to be a vanity. AndrewXyz 22:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I can't see much evidence of the term being in widespread use. Most of the references I find refer back to this article, which seems rather backwards to me. Shouldn't this article just be a section of the cliché article?--Efil's god 13:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

"Confusing" tag

The beginning of this section seems to refer to material either now removed or in external links. The reader should not have to follow external links to understand the article, but only to supplement it.

(1) X and Y have been mentioned, but not N or Z.

(2) Nothing has previously been said about Eskimo-Aleut languages.

Hope this helps, (posted by User_talk:"alyosha" from non-secure computer.) 12.210.60.65 07:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought this was confusing too. I rewrote it while also trying to clean up the original research. 62.31.67.29 12:22, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this term used in sources other than the Upenn site?

I don't see a ton of other references here. Croctotheface 20:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

• I just googled it: there are ~62,300 references. This wikipedia article is listed first, but there are also links to blog entries, other encyclopedic sites (everything2.com), tagging sites (technorati & del.icio.us). There's an opinion piece on newscientist.com from last November, which should probably be looked at as another reference, although the entire article is not accessible without a subscription. This is a 4-year-old linguistic concept, and it's not going away. --Srain 21:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that it's going away, but if it just has one verifiable source, I'm not sure it's sufficiently "arrived" to write about. However, my expectation is that there ARE other verifiable sources out there. The issue is finding them and citing them. Croctotheface 21:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Identifying section - original research?

I'm cutting that tag on the ground that a) there isn't really any discussion on this talkpage about it and b) it's factually accurate, and indeed, sourced by the originators of the term (who demonstrate that protocol all the time). Anyone disagrees with me; put it back. --Baylink@en.w (who *still* wants a damn login button on the edit screen like LJ has) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.40.90.224 (talk) 20:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

Lazy?

I take issue with the first paragraph, where it says that snowclones are used by lazy journalists and writers. There has got to be a way to creatively--not lazily--use a snowclone, even if they are often used for lack of a better idea. Rkaufman13 03:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a reference to Geoff Pullum's original blog post coining the word snowclone. Perhaps this article should be edited to include that as a quote. Mark Liberman has also [[2]] about how there is definitely a difference between the snowclone of lazy journalism and the other kind.ErinOConnor 03:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The reversal

Explanation for the edit on section russian reversal made on September 10, 2007:

"In Z, you Y X. In Soviet Russia, Y Xs YOU!"

changed to

"In Z, you Y X. In Soviet Russia, X Ys YOU!"

• ...you eat(Y) food(X). In Soviet Russia, food(X) eat(Y)s you!
• ...you drop(Y) bombs(X). In Soviet Russia, bombs(X) drop(Y) you!
• ...you edit(Y) Wikipedia(X). In Soviet Russia, Wikipedia(X) edit(Y)s you!

Comments and suggestions are welcome. Soulrefrain (Talk) 01:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Source? Notability?

Google Book Search finds not a single book mentioning snowclone; Google Scholar finds only this: "Some words that you will not find in the BNC are “chav” and “snowclone”. Nor are you likely to find them in any existing printed dictionary (yet). But you will find them on the web (with definitions)." So it doesn't seem to pass the neologism test yet. Anyone have sources to the contrary? Dicklyon 06:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

• It does seem to be quite a notable word: studies in journalism [3] refer to it. Bessel Dekker 19:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

File not found. And while I agree this kind of thing needs a word and I particularly like "snowclone," most people I've spoken to haven't heard of it, and outside of Wikipedia, I haven't come across this term (unless I'm doing a focused search using "snowclone" as a key word), so I wonder about its notability (it may be falling out of use). Shiggity (talk) 17:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Speaking as a folklorist, I find the concept useful, but the neologism of questionable value (although I like the word). I think most folklorists would identify "snowclones" as "parody cliches," or "parody proverbs." This use of "parody" refers to elements being changed within a recognizable structure, so that while, for instance, "The Cowboy's Lament" and "St. James' Infirmary" are both variations on the English ballad cycle known as "The Unfortunate Rake," self-conscious versions involving union workers (serious) or skiers (humorous) qualify as parodies. Winter Maiden (talk) 05:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

List of Snowclones

Wasn't there a comprehensive list of snowclones, broken down by decade, on wikipedia? What happened to it? --FeldBum 20:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It was deleted as hopeless original research. If you want it for your personal fun, I can copy them for you. Just don't list them here without refernces from reputable sources which clearly say that they are "snowclones". `'Míkka 21:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Can we have the list here, or a link to what old revision had it? I just came wondering whether "Don't X me, bro." made it to the list yet since I keep seeing it elsewhere, only to discover the overwhelming majority of the list was gone. I think an exception should be made for so-called "original research" for new,fun stuff like this. ;) New stuff is where wikipedia excels over old-style encyclopedias, we should embrace that strength rather than ignore it. The link to snowclones.org has satisified my needs for now, though. :) --Danny Rathjens 23:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I remember that list; it was useful. I was telling someone about Snowclones and I intended to send him a link to the list. Now I can't find it. Someone put a lot of work into that and it would be a shame if it was lost. I don't understand Wikipedia's obsession with deleting useful pages, but if you must, please find some way to preserve them elsewhere. Are you really running out of disk space?--dww —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.5.210.10 (talk) 22:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I would like to have a copy of the list too... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.240.162.125 (talk) 15:08, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I found a copy of the list here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:JackSchmidt/List_of_snowclones&oldid=183975072 Ozy42 (talk) 19:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm thrilled somebody buried a link to that list here. How is it that Wikipedia permits us to claim compilations of elements easily bitten amounts to original research, without having to adduce a single example of an institutional originality bar (university, patent office, art school for gifted five-year-olds, etc.) that this would actually pass over? Three cheers I managed to dredge this one out of the originality gap gutter. — MaxEnt 19:02, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Snowclone examples

Please do not add here examples which were not described elsewhere as "snowclones", per wikpedia policy WP:CITE and per general tendency against collecting trivia in wikipedia and other listcruft. For an encyclopedic article 2-3 examples are enough for a reader to get an idea. We don't collect a list of synonyms in the Synonym article, do we? `'Míkka 01:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I assume we're talking about the "GOTO Considered harmful" item here. What's the problem? The article clearly describes a "snowclone" as "a type of formula-based cliché which uses an old idiom in a new context" and offers as an examples "X is the new Y". As noted over at Considered harmful, the letter was not the first use but inspired a bunch of other related cases, all published and verifiable. If there's any such thing as a "snowclone", this is obviously one such. The Considered harmful article has described it as one for six months. And, since Language Log started this mess, would you accept its opinion that "Considered harmful" was the "snowclone of the day" on 2007-07-03?

Of course, it wouldn't take much to convince me that this article should be deleted altogether. Wikipedia doesn't do neologisms, right? RossPatterson 01:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I've put the short form of the "Considered Harmful" text back, with the Language Log reference, since it obviously meets the standard you're asserting. RossPatterson 22:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly what I required. Mark Liberman is a reliable source. `'Míkka 22:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, nobody gets to "require" anything other than compliance with the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. "Considered Harmful" clearly meets the meaning of this neologism, and it's notable enough to have an article of its own. It didn't need to be mentioned elsewhere, it just happens to have been. RossPatterson 23:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

We are discussing a totally different issue here. As for "required" it is my bad English. I meant to say "requested", and my request was clearly explained, based not on my whim, but on wikipedia policies and general trends. `'Míkka 23:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, said. Mikka was coming across like he owns this article or something. Quite different from the collaborative effort this is supposed to be. --Danny Rathjens 23:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Bug off. At the very top I explained the requirements. As for "collaborative effort", take a look around the web to see how much garbage is "collaborated". In wikipedia "collabortive effort" includes some nasty things, such as WP:AFD and WP:CSD. As for "owns", you are simply trolling. I edited it, like, 5 times. `'Míkka 23:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I was reiterating the exact same point that Ross made. That your wording of personally requiring things made it sound like you think you own this article and the rest of we contributors must meet *your* requirements in order to contribute. Your excuse of bad English is a good enough defense; apparently we read a meaning into your words that you did not intend. Please do not make the same mistake with my words. (I find it hard to believe you can admit your own mistake and yet still call someone who pointed out your mistake a troll, but perhaps that is simply a misunderstanding of the words "troll" or "own", also.) --Danny Rathjens 17:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Peace. We don't have a disagreement as to article content. I don't like myslef either. `'Míkka 18:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I've added "Mother of all X", which I think is notable for its foreign origin. —Ashley Y 04:13, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I've edited this because the foreign origin you cited is fictitious (I've found English use of this snowclone as far back as 1853 with no sign of origin). Merennulli (talk) 12:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I re-removed the example of "welcome our X overlords." I'd never heard of this one before. The very few examples that remain in this article should be, I argue, absolutely well-known to basically anyone. I even question the inclusion of "X considered harmful", since I don't think it's recognizable to anyone outside of the software domain. A good example of one that IS recognizable is the first one, "Have X, will travel." Yes, this is a judgment call, but hey, let's use good judgment and only include examples that are indisputably and broadly entrenched in our language/culture. CasperGoodwood (talk) 17:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The criterion for inclusion has nothing to do with what you personally are familiar with; the criterion is about sourcing. I personally removed several examples that were not verifiable sourced as snowclones, but this one certainly is. And the majority of Americans who enjoy watching the Simpsons are probably familiar with it, too. The "Have X will travel" one dates you, don't you think? I just checked with my very literate 21-year-old daughter, and she'd never heard of it, with gun, tuxedo, or otherwise. And there's nothing in the definition of snowclone that says it's entrenched, indisputably, broadly, or otherwise; "instantly recognizable, time-worn" can apply within arbitrary subpopulations. Dicklyon (talk) 07:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with personal familiarity. There are plenty of one-timer jokes and neologisms we are not going to add to wikipedia just because someone blurbed it. You are coneniently dismissing the most important part of CasperGoodwood argument: "entrenched in culture". Unless the item in question has multiple independent references, it fails the general notability approach of wikipedia. So far no one else noticed/discussed the snowclone in question but the fan of the snowlonism. Therefore this example must be deleted. Also, I agree with the beginning of this section: 2-3 prominent examples are enough to illustrate a linguistic notion. The artile has 4 of them already: "snow", "pink", "travel" & "harmful". Laudak (talk) 16:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

But where does "entrenched in culture" come from as a criterion? I thought that wikipedia's overriding criterion of verifiability was adequate to restrict the examples here. Here are 100,000 or so web hits that are relevant; 500 of those talk about it being a snowclone. Dicklyon (talk) 16:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the argumented discusion, beyound "ilikeit". I am afraid you are mistaken with the "verifiability" rule. This rule is of, so to say, negative action: what is not verifiable may be deleted on sight, but not all verifiable must be dumped into wikipedia. Please take a look into the AfD: every day dozens of verifiable but thoroughly nonnotable things are deleted. The same goes on a lesser scale with "factoids": I cannot point you the reference, but recently a massive campaign happened in wikipedia to delete and clean up various "Trivia" and "In popular culture" sections. In other words, "Notability", however vague it is, is a major inclusion criterion, while verifiability is major deletion criterion. We don't want to put thousands of jokes into Joke article. I am sure hundreds of jokes have zillions of google hits. Thus about yuor google counter, of 500 you preferred hardly 2-3 are original texts. Most of them are blogs and copycats, and nearly none of them go beyond simply citing as an example, rather than discussing its cultural significance. Laudak (talk) 17:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I've re-removed the example about the overlords, per what seems to be consensus. User:Dicklyon makes some good points about arbitrary subpopulations, which is the point I was trying to make when I questioned the "considered harmful" example as well. I'd like to evolve to some examples that are virtually irrefutable in their broadness and understandability today. As User:Laudak appropriately says, we don't put thousands of jokes into the Joke article, and we don't want to fall back into just inserting more and more snowclone examples because they're our pet favorites. I'm not wedded to any of the examples here ("Have X, will travel" doesn't date me since I wasn't around for its genesis, by the way :) ). Any other suggestions for universal examples? -- CasperGoodwood (talk) 20:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree that 2-to-1 represents "consensus". Can we have some other opinions on the issue please? Dicklyon (talk) 22:02, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I was the first remover, so it is actually 3:1. May I suggest a criterion that the examples must be of "own wikipedia article quality", such as considered harmful and ... is the new black? What is more, I would suggest to delete the section "examples" altogether, as a potential magnet, incorporating notable examples into plain text and creating a subcategory:Snowclones in category:Cliches (the latter I will do right now, enjoy and populate). `'Míkka>t 23:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Category was a good suggestion. I populated it from "what links here" Laudak (talk) 19:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Given this snowclone's recent surge in popularity thanks to Ken Jenning's use of it during his Jeopardy match against Watson (and his use of it AS a snowclone, replacing "insect" with "computer"), and the amount of media coverage surrounding his use of it, it may be time to revisit this issue. If anything, its use has increased since 2007. --166.20.224.11 (talk) 19:11, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

added "What would X do?" − i guess it's better know than most of the other examples; alas the WWJD article doesnt contain any source for the snowclone character... hope, someone can add it ;) -- toblu [?!] 18:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

How about "I'm not a(n) X, but I play one on television" - I believe it began with an advertisement that featured an actor that played a television doctor hawking some sort of quasi-medical product. googuse (talk) 07:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

How about adding "X? In my Y?" followed by "It's more likely that you think." The source of this needs some looking into, but I think enough people have heard of it that it warrants being looked into. Zealot guy (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

X Nation

Surely X Nation is not on the model of the negative "Prozac Nation" and "Fast Food Nation," but rather both of those are on the model of the meant-to-be-positive phrase "Woodstock Nation," the earliest faux-nation I am aware of to be self-proclaimed ad hoc on the basis of common habits or beliefs. I dimly recall some other self-proclaimed nations of the same era, usually associated with political protests. All of them are probably on the model of Native American peoples, such as "Cherokee Nation." Winter Maiden (talk) 05:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

X considered harmful

Ok mr. revert guy, did you even read the reference? The reference cites to wikipedia for support, and then goes on to say

However, "X considered harmful" was already a well-established journalistic cliche in 1968 -- which is why Wirth chose it. The illlustration above shows the headline of a letter to the New York Times published August 12, 1949: "Rent Control Controversy / Enacting Now of Hasty Legislation Considered Harmful". I'm sure it's not the earliest example of this phrase used in a headline or title, either -- I chose it only as a convenient illustration of usage a couple of decades before the date of Dijkstra's paper.

Gront (talk) 06:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see your point. So I changed a few words to make the entry more consistent with the reference. OK? (mr. revert guy)Dicklyon (talk) 08:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. wikipedia considered harmful is the new black. :) Gront (talk) 04:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I for one welcome our new snowclone overlords. Dicklyon (talk) 04:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It was Edgar Dijstra who wrote "GOTO considered harmful", not Wirth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonTrew (talk • contribs) 16:55, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Edsger Dijkstra wrote it, but Niklaus Wirth published it and supplied the title. Well documented, see the references in Considered harmful (e.g., Dijkstra's What led to "Notes on Structured Programming"). RossPatterson (talk) 17:22, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Just passing through...

Thought you guys should know the introduction really doesn't make any sense. I'm still trying to figure out what a snowclone is. -155.42.196.25 (talk) 18:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything confusing about it. Seems ok imho. Fippy Darkpaw (talk) 17:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite needed

When I first read this article and checked the references, I was tempted to nominate it for deletion on the spot. After reviewing the past AFD, I really don't understand why this article is in such poor shape, especially upon consideration of the references listed there (from 2006!). This article seems like a lot of original research and editorial opinions. I think it'd be best if we just started from the ground up, using the references to write the article... as it stands now, it seems like a mash of things people stuck in over time instead of the encyclopedic treatment of a serious, albeit new, concept. Just my $0.02, wish I had enough familiarity with the subject matter to offer more than my opinion.  ;-) /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:00, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Ibid. It's a bunch of gibberish, based on some fleeting Geofrey Pullam hooey. Motes passing in the blogosphere, undeserving of a Wikipedia article, even a poorly one (that pads a bunch of Pullam web page cites with actual uses of cliched phrases that have never been thought of anywhere else as "snowclones", a confessedly synthetic, transparently artificial word). Wikiuser100 (talk) 02:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Oooh Pejorative

Quick quote from the ending of this article : "which contains a split infinitive, a grammar construction criticized by language pedants." Pejorative n'est-ce pas? VonBlade (talk) 23:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's inaccurate anyway, since one assumes a "pedant" is (irritatingly) right about something, whereas it's generally agreed that English isn't Latin and needn't follow Latin grammar rules. The split infinitive is not usually held to be an error in English. 86.153.15.186 (talk) 20:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

que? At least to me, pedant doesn't imply anything about "right" or "wrong". In fact only a pedant even thinks such a distinction is meaningful. --86.135.182.194 (talk) 19:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Edited out.--141.113.85.21 (talk) 14:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

On the case of split infinitives, I personally try to avoid them but accept them when it would be stupid to do otherwise (as per Fowler). They are all over Wikipedia but seem much more accepted in British English than in American (I have hated for years Outlook asking "Are you sure you really want to delete t his message?") I have checked the guidelines but no real guidance there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonTrew (talk • contribs) 16:59, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Deletion

I appreciate this topic has been marked for deletion before. I have read all the discussion.

I think it should be considered again for deletion. I have never, in my locality, heard this word. I do not believe it is a real word. Beyond that, it has no relevance to an encyclopaedia because it helps nobody in any way-- so even if it is a real word, it has little relevance. Wikpedia is not a dictionary, of new words or old ones.

Si Trew 1-Feb-2009 1805 GMT —Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonTrew (talk • contribs) 18:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I think this phenomenon of cliched phrase patterns is widespread enough to deserve an article. However I also believe that snowclone is not widely enough used for that to be the title. Are people advocating for deletion saying this phenomenon does not exist, or that the name of it is no good? Also, how widely used does something need to be, if no other word adequately describes it? There are many many technical terms on Wikipedia that your average man on the street would never have heard of, and that can't be used as a justification for deletion. BTW, one missing that I have seen time and time again is "Like X on Y" where Y is some sort of usually psychoactive drug, like LSD, but may also be (anabolic) steroids. --GetThePapersGetThePapers (talk) 16:52, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

There are two aspects: The concept and the term. The concept is a technical one and could be described in its own article (per WP:Summary style) even if there were no word for it. The word is relatively new, and since it has a relatively technical meaning in linguistics it's not likely that it will ever be as common as bathtub. But that's not a reasonable test. By the same test, ferrofluid, preformationism and equiveillance must be deleted as well, and with them presumably thousands of other articles that are relevant mainly to experts. Hans Adler 17:54, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Indeed! Apart from the notability aspect, the article itself is very good - close to FA quality. Kudos to the editors. But it's not notable enough for FA, despite established usage; the IEEE ref and increasing usage (14,400 uses per google at the moment), etc. make deletion clearly inappropriate, IMO.--Elvey (talk) 15:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense. See post of this date under "Rewrite needed" heading.Wikiuser100 (talk) 02:07, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Split Infinitives "sometimes appropriate"?

The linguists aren't saying it's sometimes appropriate, they're saying it's a perfectly valid construction for English and the prescriptions against it were derived from languages like Latin where it's not possible to split infinitives because they consist of only one word (e.g. Latin: the infinitive is formed with a suffix and you can't split the infinitive without splitting the actual word -- compare with English where you can very well (and often do) split infinitives because they are formed with the addition of "to", not an affix). Modern linguistics has nothing to do with prescriptivism, so linguists can't make a claim about something being appropriate. They can only make a claim about something being accepted (from empirical data, i.e. observation). Compare that with the armchair linguists who make up their rules for how English SHOULD be spoken out of thin air.

which contains a split infinitive, a construction decried by late-19th-century prescriptive grammarians[9][10] but which most experts on language now agree is sometimes appropriate.[11]

The sentence doesn't make sense. Even if we would adjust it to something like this:

which contains a split infinitive, a construction decried by late-19th-century prescriptive grammarians[9][10] but which most experts on language now consider perfectly grammatical.[11]

We still have an either-or contrast which isn't there. We still have prescriptivists trying to tell other people how to write and speak "proper English" and English speakers have been splitting their infinitives even in yonder times of olde. Is it even necessary to point out the split infinitive? If so: a wikilink should suffice, no? Do we need to emphasize it's a valid construction just because we mention it's traditionally frowned upon by prescriptivists? It adds a total of three references which have nothing to do with the article's subject matter just to add some trivia to an example sentence. Delete? -- 78.34.72.78 (talk) 16:40, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. I agree this page must not be overfilled with details and external links not directly related to the subject. People know how to boldly click on "split infinitive" and read it all. - Altenmann >t 17:27, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Is mentioning the Enthymeme helpful to this article?

Hello to the editors of this article, I'm fairly new here, and I've never heard of Snowclone before, I find it interesting but upon reading the article it instantly made me think of the Enthymeme. I was wondering if enthymeme deserved an honorable mention in this article, just trying to be helpful in this respect. Since an enthymeme is a syllogism without one of its three parts (the conclusion or one of the premises), it felt somewhat related in my mind. the missing part is due to some form of societal/cultural homogeneity, where the reader can automatically fill in the blanks based on past knowledge, zeitgeist, what have you. Some examples are:

Women are bad drivers, Jane Doe is a woman.. [inferred conclusion]

[inferred premise], Jane Doe is an Asian.. therefore Jane Doe is a bad driver.

(Not implying EITHER IS TRUE! Just good examples since we're all familiar with the jokes/stereotypes) (further disclaimer: I love Asian women)

Adam.T.Historian (talk) 21:53, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

The mother of all X

The text correctly references Saddam Hussein and the first Gulf War as the source of this template in Western languages, but isn't "the mother of all X" a traditional template in Arabic language rather than Saddam's invention? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.208.61.202 (talk) 11:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The part after that about 'The X to end al Xs'...wasn't that used to refer to The Great War? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.150.42.132 (talk) 05:31, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

If not "snowclone," then what?

If "snowclone" is not correct in the context of Wikipedia then what would be the correct term for these templates? Would they be considered cliches? I'll leave this to you old-timers to sort out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.47.232 (talk) 23:57, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Nanny from hell

I am sure this originated from the 1992 Movie The Hand That Rocks the Cradle (film) . It was widely used at the time to describe the main character. In fact here is a Washington Post review that uses the term. - 203.99.66.20 (talk) 00:31, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Sex, Drugs, and X

I saw the warning note and realize you guys don't want this to be a coatrack, but what do you guys think about Wine, women and song"Sex, Drugs, and X", as popularized by Ian Dury for his song of the same name?--Louiedog (talk) 01:47, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Sex, Drugs, and X is referenced in many songs. A tad on the ridiculous side is Sex, Drugs, and RRSPs (registered retirement savings plans) by the Arrogant Worms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.78.12.187 (talk) 22:34, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Paint me X and call me a Y

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001838.html 91.66.214.49 (talk) 2011-04-21T13:50+02:00 —Preceding undated comment added 13:50, 21 April 2011 (UTC).

I excitedly await the firm fists of our new snowclone overlords

don't you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.67.226 (talk) 19:52, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Example list is too long, unfocused

The article has a problem which is not uncommon: the list of examples has become an unfocused, near-trivia list. There could probably be 100 examples with reasonable sources, but what's the point?

What needs to be done, IMHO - and this isn't trivial- is for a few examples to be wrapped into text and the whole idea of a list dropped. The examples that are kept would either have to be incredibly notable or to prove some specific point. Making those choices, and writing that text, won't be easy, though.

I know of a couple articles that have faced this issue and gotten rid of lists, incorporating examples solely into text: Trilogy has done a good job, things are a little iffy-er at Indefinite and fictitious numbers. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 22:46, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

When X met Y

The origin is "When Harry met Sally" of course. I think It's worth mentioning in the article. Example - Boardwalk Empire? When "The Sopranos" met "Mad Men". Kvsh5 (talk) 05:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

The mother of all...

Obviously made famous in 1991, but check out this comment at about 1:40,[4] from a decade earlier. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:24, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Example list

The list grows again. Clearly, there are a great number of examples possible. If there are examples of long-lasting cultural importance, then they are may be found in scholarly references or in other reputable sources. Likewise, we don't collect into wikipedia all possible metaphors, Bushisms, garden path sentences, and other curiocities. Generally several examples is enough for an encyclopedic article for readers get the idea. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:01, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

The list is not overly long.

The criteria used on the most recent deletion aren't clear, other than shortening the list. After some months, perhaps six months, it might be appropriate to delete examples with no citations. It's also possible that citations used on one example, apply to others & should be added to them -- so a reading all the article's citations in detail would be useful. Ideally, such a review would include all citations on this talk page, as well as in deletions from the article's page history. Lentower (talk) 13:27, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I stated my criterion above: there should be a long lasting cultural importance. For this reason, if you may notice, I didn't delete some unreferenced items from the list. Someone mentioned that WP:N is not applicable ho article content. I didn't refer to the policy. I referred to "notability" it its generic meaning. If you want wikilegalese, the "in-text" notability is covered by policies and guidelines WP:UNDUE, WP:TRIVIA, WP:NOT. If you start digging, you may readily notice that although there was no such term, "snowclone", the construct/concept itself have long been in use. Often this is introduced by an explanatory phrase (if the listeners/readers are not trusted to know the source), such as "Paraphrasing a famous quotation, “Old Soldiers Never Die….” to “Old Entertainers Never Die, They Just Fade Away”"[5] (old X never die, they just Y) or "Paraphrasing a famous saying, “you are what you read”" ("you are what you X") [6] (you may find TONS of such examples with the help of google). OOps, it seems I've just opened a can of worms to aid referenced snowclonoscopy. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:16, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

The word "snowclone"

Why is the term "snowclone?" Prior to this article I have encountered dozens of snowclones, yet until reading this article I had never seen one instance of the "If Eskimos have X words for snow" snowclone. Therefore, I have significant doubt that this snowclone is indeed popular, and furthermore, even under the assumption that it truly is as popular as the author proposes, see no reason why "snowclone" is a good term for it. I understand that they are clones, and that the author created an example that involves snow, but to attach the word snow to the term due merely to this one, incomprehensive example seems inappropriate and foolish to the extreme. I propose the community develop a more appropriate term, such as "Meme Lib" or "XYZ Meme." I think continuing to use the term "snowclone" will add unnecessary confusion and that something like "Meme Lib" is much more intuitive and logical overall. Uchiha Itachi 25 (talk) 15:52, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Colleague, wikipedia cannot invent new terms, even if the old ones is bad. Wikipedia only reports what is already known and reported by experts in reliable sources. The person who suggested the term stated that this trope was never named before. If you can find an earlier reference to a commonly used nice Greek word which describes precisely what is described by the term "slowclone", then you are welcome to add it to the article, and even start a discussion about article renaming. Otherwise sorry, no meme for you. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:33, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Proposed merge into Phrasal template

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Following this discussion the pages were not merged. There is no consensus supporting the move, and no clearly compelling argument in its favor. Cnilep (talk) 06:31, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

---

It seems "snowclone" is just a mildly pejorative term for "cliched phrasal template". I propose this article be merged into Phrasal template as the slightly more general term. Note that both articles are fairly short, so it shouldn't be too difficult to merge them. 138.16.21.199 (talk) 07:34, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I would characterize it slightly differently, just to make it abundantly clear to readers that the terms are not close to being synonymous, but rather one is a distinct sub-set of the other.

I'd potentially support a merge, if we can find a few reliable sources that clearly state such (partially to prevent future argument, partially because it would be informative/useful for readers to know for sure).

Ideally, we can also bulk up the content on phrasal templates themselves at the same time, to prevent that main topic from being overwhelmed by the fairly-solid snowclone content.

(I'd be opposed to trimming much/any of the content about snowclone, as it has already been heavily eyeballed/edited/argued/condensed). —Quiddity (talk) 21:40, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I'd support a merge - 'phrasal template' seems like a more encyclopaedic and less gimmicky name for the same concept (and one which is more transparent to new readers). Robofish (talk) 01:30, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose The subject Snowclone is big enough to have its own article. --Spannerjam 11:13, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

So Whatever Happened to 'Catch Phrases'?

Back in the Sixties, there was an advertising campaign for Smirnoff Vodka, aimed at the jet-set, or rather, at people who liked to think they belonged to the jet-set ('jet-set' was a Sixties buzz-phrase for 'sophisticated'), anyway, the campaign used mock cocktail party repartee (a 'cocktail party' was... oh, never mind. Ditto, 'repartee') with the catch-phrase 'I used to think X was Y, until I discovered Smirnoff', where X denotes something only sophisticates enjoy, and Y equals something totally uncool. So: 'I used to think the Ming Dynasty was a Chinese restaurant, until I discovered Smirnoff.' Subliminal message: 'Drink Smirnoff vodka, and you will become a Cool Person.' This is not a new message from advertisers, but it became a hip phrase ('hip' meant...) anyway, this 'slogan', as it was known (sorry for the archaism. An archaism is... sigh) was widely parodied and repurposed, by sophisticates and hip people, into cocktail party one-liners like 'I used to think f**king was a city in China until I discovered Smirnoff,' or 'I used to think cunnilingus was an Irish airline, until I discovered Smirnoff', and some Smirnoff parodies were even a tad off-colour, anyhow, is this an early instance of snow-cloning, or what? Bluedawe 10:00, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Re-nominate for merge with Phrasal template

This entire talk page is one long dialogue of people confused about the term "snowclone" or opposed to its use. The term originated from a blogspot page here where someone proposed it be put into use. Meanwhile, the phenomenon had already been defined as a "phrasal template" the year before by a published MIT text here Wikipedia now has two articles about the same thing, one with a controversial title and one without. Because this issue has not yet been resolved, this term is going through an unfortunate case of self-fulfilling notability, wherein a Wikipedia article helps to popularize something un-notable to the point where third-party sources use it and make it notable. Regardless of which term you favor, it should at least be agreed that there is no reason to have both articles as there is no difference in the two terms. I propose that this article, with its confusing and silly title, be merged with the latter. The content can be merged and the term "snowclone" can live on as a cute nickname for a phrasal template. 63.158.179.68 (talk) 22:28, 11 September 2015 (UTC)